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Who said running the shadows was easy? Dodging bullets, swords, spirits, and spells just to name a few. Elves, Dwarves, Trolls, even the occasional Dragon can make any Shadowrun go bad.
 
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Ghostmaker
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Character Name: ix Sama
Race: Elf
Sex: Male

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptySat Jun 30, 2012 6:19 am

My next post on this site will be LT's im sorry so long still trying to wrap my head around whats going on im driving now right last i checked i rolled initiative and was waiting to get in the truck...

the Truck is a troll sized (paid for this) SUV So the two ladies can fit in the big old plushy seat on the passengers side or the back with the light machein gun Smile ill be incontact soon later gotta go work i know i know even god rested on the seventh day apparantly i do not get the same consideration Razz later
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Kesslan
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Character Name: Kesslan
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptySat Jun 30, 2012 9:26 am

Annnnnd this is why I so rarely use hand grenades.
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Starcraft
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Number of posts : 225
Age : 36
Registration date : 2011-08-21

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Character Name: Alexia Mooie Vos
Race: Fox Shapeshifter
Sex: Female

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptySun Jul 01, 2012 10:37 pm

Letting yall know im still around. Just trying to figure out where's an appropriate time to pose in (along with fighting against RL time restraints)
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Ghostmaker
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Ghostmaker


Number of posts : 3114
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Character Name: ix Sama
Race: Elf
Sex: Male

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyMon Jul 02, 2012 3:36 am

Sorry no computer access all weekend im so depressed about these events stopping me from posting its very sad BUT LT will be in action soon or at least ill post something cerebrel in nature Smile

gotta work now lata
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Gala
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Gala


Number of posts : 3061
Age : 42
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Character Name: Gala
Race: Human
Sex: Female

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyMon Jul 02, 2012 2:28 pm

@Seij/Jagger - You're up. Two Grenades have gone off in quick succession (quite obvious). You'll have to roll Perc. to see where Kesslan ended up - he's stopped running for now, but my guess is that you don't want to run in to him...
- On that: I suggest rolling with the penalty at first; re-roll if your result is too low to be useful. Obviously post any/all rolls.
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Gala
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Gala


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Character Name: Gala
Race: Human
Sex: Female

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyTue Jul 03, 2012 12:08 pm

Ahh, yes, I remember that... I was forgetting the trauma of your previous roll... It's natural to forget trauma, you know?
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Darkon
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyTue Jul 03, 2012 12:55 pm

Trauma? Which Trauma? I better do my ini roll before holding everyone up. ... Suspect What was I saying?
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Kesslan
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyWed Jul 04, 2012 5:55 pm

It's hard figuring out how to properly justify that penalty in some cases game world wise but I think I managed to find a reasonable enough explanation. I hope. Need feedback on the perception tests though before I know what to do.
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Gala
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Gala


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Character Name: Gala
Race: Human
Sex: Female

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyThu Jul 05, 2012 5:20 am

You are the one, huh? Well, with a result like that, I'll allow your description... One problem: In order to add Dodge to your test, you'd have to "take Full Defense as an interrupt action"; which would sacrifice your current action. It's a great roll - let me know what you're going to do with that.


"Dodge Rules, SR4A 160":

"Full Defense as Interrupt, SR4A 160":
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Kesslan
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyThu Jul 05, 2012 10:18 am

Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that. Might as well make use of it since I still don't have any targets as of yet. On that note I also used agility when I should have used reaction, thus shorting myself 1 die. Also I keep forgetting that one can use a gymnastics dodge instead which helps when on a budget for BP.
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Gala
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Character Name: Gala
Race: Human
Sex: Female

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyThu Jul 05, 2012 12:40 pm

Ok, in that case: you now have targets... In changing your focus from attacking to defense, you've manage to "catch hold of some details you may otherwise have missed - in the interest of self preservation". Or something like that.

- You've managed to get a location on the muzzle flashes. Alone, they are random details, and the targets/attackers/defenders (depending on perspective) clearly have training.
- Your hearing, despite the ringing in your ears, gives you enough information, combined with what you're seeing to really put together a picture of the field.

There are 4 shooters. 2 using single-shot mode on Semi Automatics; and 2 using short-burst mode. They look like 8 shooters, because they're moving between their shots. It's very smart, difficult, and indicates highly trained opponents. Finally: they're using a crossing pattern, rather than "straight shooting", to maximize their suppression range - and they're syncronized, crossing to right angles with each other before reversing their pattern.
Because you know this - you know when to duck. You are the one!
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Gala
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Gala


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Character Name: Gala
Race: Human
Sex: Female

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyFri Jul 06, 2012 2:27 am

@Jagger: You're up with Seij. Make sure to review my previous GM post; there's a lot of important stuff in there.
Summary of required rolls:
- Do you have sound suppression? If not, you'll need a Body+Willpower (2) test to not be additionally distracted by hearing damage...
- If you stand up, you have to dodge (also remember: you dodge ranged attacks with reaction only unless you're full defense... then it's dodge+reaction).
As before: I recommend using a perception roll with the penalty for being distracted first to find out from me what you can see/hear.
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Jagger
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptySat Jul 07, 2012 9:01 am

Ok, a 'shortie' after such a delay but some good rolls.
And I didn't want to risk shooting back just yet as the muzzle flash, just as those firing from the treeline, would pinpoint Seij's position, and being out in the open he'd end up like swiss cheese PDQ.
Very Happy
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Gala
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Gala


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Character Name: Gala
Race: Human
Sex: Female

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptySun Jul 08, 2012 5:23 am

@Ghostmaker: I need that dodge roll for the Truck.
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Kesslan
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Number of posts : 2140
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Character Name: Kesslan
Race: GM
Sex:

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyTue Jul 10, 2012 2:36 pm

Hey Gala, You don't need to spend an action to Go from "Full Defence' to not using Full Defence, or certainly I've never seen anything in the rules for it, nor do I now checking it. Full Defence is merely a Complex action that you use and can use as an interrupt. As I didn't use it as an interrupt and it used up my Complex action last pass I can simply not use Full Defence again. If I wanted to stay in Full Defence, I'd have to use the Complex action again.


As such I need to know what penalties I'd face trying to fire back as I assume the attackers are using partial cover. I also need to know the range as this action I'm not taking a simple to 'lock on' to a target.
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Gala
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Gala


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Character Name: Gala
Race: Human
Sex: Female

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyTue Jul 10, 2012 2:53 pm

Yup, you're right. I just looked too.

As for targets: You actually have a target. Treat it as shooting at near full-cover (slightly less than blind fighting - since you know where to point). Alternatively, you could attempt to use Astral; keeping in mind that there's a penalty for physical actions while utilizing your Astral sight.
To simply shoot at the muzzle-flash points: -3.
To attempt to find them utilizing Astral: Perception - then if you find them: -2.
Note: You may use Assensing instead of Perception if you wish - but Perception is sufficient. Also, you may take the simple action to Percieve in detail, or you may make the test with the "distracted" penalty first.
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Kesslan
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyTue Jul 10, 2012 3:28 pm

The Perceiving Astral penalty doesn't apply to Dual Natured creatures. Most likely because unlike everyone else Dual Natured being's cant stop being dual natured and thus suffer potentially deadly risks when up against astral barriers, FAB and other threats. That's why I'm wondering what the penalty is from cover specifically.
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Gala
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Gala


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Character Name: Gala
Race: Human
Sex: Female

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 4:00 am

Yes it still applies. In my house-rule, the penalty is not removed provided that is the primary sense you are utilizing while performing that action. The thing that does not apply is the simple-action to switch between senses. Since I've ruled that shifters and other naturally dual-natured simply have Astral Perception always on, then you don't have to "switch" you merely have to choose to notice.
That said: have you ever tried to follow a sound, even with your eyes open, but in deep concentration following that sound? You are most definitely subject to stumbling etc. while moving toward it. Or if you're trying to find the source of a scent in the kitchen, and bump your head on an open cupboard? Anyway, my point is merely that intentionally utilizing one specific sense as a primary sense for a time, other than vision, for us visual-based animals (metahumans, shifters) is difficult. And that's the basis for the negative.

So: to shoot someone by targeting their Astral Aura will cost a -2 penalty. And again: "switching" between Astral and physical worlds for you shifters is "at will" - not even a free action, it's simply as you choose. The only limitation is that you have to announce it, and make specific actions in one or the other.

You don't know what their cover is.
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Kesslan
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 7:45 am

Ok well this was be first time you made any mention of house ruling the astral penalty for shifters as it does not apply per book (the entry for dual natured creatures specifically states the penalty does not apply) and was never a factor before. So in other words regardless of what sense im using I'm at -2 to -4 for vision and another -2 due to sound? I also need to know what the range is to account for range penalties.
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Gala
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Sex: Female

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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 8:25 am

It's not a house rule that all characters have a penalty to physical actions while actively percieving in the Astral. There is no exception for Shifters either.

The house rule of mine is the following: Shifters do not have to use a simple action to activate their astral sight. It is automatic/at will - and only needs to be announced (not even a free action). Furthermore, highly obvious things in the Astral would be "noticed" automatically (similar to an Elf's ability in DND to find hidden doors) without even having to ask for an Astral Perception test. The example I used when describing this is: A Shifter, having been always dual natured, has to be attuned to magic enough to be able to avoid astral barriers, or obviously powerful spirits. This is a house rule of mine, and has been in effect for as long as I've been GMing.
It does not extend to physical actions while using Astral sight as a primary sense. So while using Astral Sight as a primary sight tool, shifters are not exempt from the -2 physical actions rule (as per the book). I've copied the applicable sections below, for reference. In neither SR4A nor Runners Companion is there any mention that Shifters are exempt from that rule; nor have I house-ruled it as such.
I think this is the first time we've had this discussion, because this is the first time this has come up...

So, with the sound-issue: You'll have a -2-2 if you're utilizing Astral, or a -2-3 if you're utilizing Physical (I stated in the previous post that you're not quite firing blind; so it's not the -4 in the book).


"Magic; Runner's Companion; P.87":

"Astral Perception; SR4A P.191":


Last edited by Gala on Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kesslan
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 9:30 am

Shifters do have an exception. It's specifically stated under the entry for the dual natured power that all dual natured creatures do not suffer the -2 penalty.
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Gala
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 9:49 am

Shifters are not actually dual natured; they are naturally awakened. The two are not the same thing. Again: relevant secions copied below.

As a note: being awakened does not actually define you as being dual-natured. When you're awakened, you are only also dual-natured while utilizing your magic.

"Creating a Shape Shifter; Runner's Companion P.86":
So this means: use these rules, not any other rules; and that Shifter characters are subject to all other PC character rules. This would include the -2.

"Shifter Powers; Runner's Companion P.87":
Note: "Dual Natured" is not listed in the Shifter powers. However Sapience is listed. So you know this was not simply an omission. Also, unlike the other "Critters" which appear in Runner's Companion as possible PC races, Shapeshifters are not listed as a "Critter" in SR4A.

The Magic section I copied in already. Again: being awakened does not actually mean that you're dual-natured. You are only dual-natured while you're utilizing your powers.
And the Astral Perception section I also already copied. In it you will see the statement: "A character using Astral Perception is considered dual-natured, active on both the physical and astral planes simultaneously." Despite that statement, I've never had a player attempt to argue that since they are Dual-Natured, they are subject to the Dual-Natured power rules, and have no penalty for physical actions while percieving astrally.

In summary: The rules do not support, in any way, the statement that Shifters are not subject to the -2 Penalty. My house-rule which exempts Shifters in my game from the Simple-Action required for Astral Perception may have led to that conclusion. If so, I appologize - but Shifters are certainly subject to it; by the rules, and not exempted by my house-rule.
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Kesslan
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 10:27 am

Shifters are Dual natured and have the Dual Natured trait. Any Dual Natured creature is automatically awakened. It's even specifically stated under Magic, Page 87 of Runner's Companion:

And I quote:
Shapeshifters are Awakened but they are not Magicians. Shapeshifters are Dual-natured beings in both forms, and as such they may learn assensing and Astral Combat, but otherwise they cannot learn or use Magic Skills, Astrally Project, Initate or bond foci unless they take an appropriate quality such as Adept, Astral Sight, Magician or Mystic Adept.

Shape Shifters are also listed with the Dual Natured trait in every entry in the books that gives stats for a shape shifter. This is in turn further supported by every single CG program I've come across for SR4
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Gala
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 11:20 am

I understand that. However, since their "Powers" section does not include the "Dual Natured" power, while Naga and Sasquatch, earlier in the book, does specifically include the Dual Natured power, it is written as intended. Shapeshifters, while magical, do not have the benefits of the "Dual Natured" power. Again, this is not a house rule of mine - this is how the book writes it. See Naga and Sasquatch below:

"Naga; Runner's Companion P.84":

"Sasquatch; Runner's Companion P.84":

"Sapient Critter Magic; Runner's Companion P.85":

Now take a look at the differences. The "benefits" that you're ascribing to simply being dual natured are actually only available to the "Power" of "Dual Natured" described in SR4A (which is capitalized, and not hyphenated). Re-reading the Shifter Magic section, you will see that it is not capitalized. Checking again the Shifter Powers section, you will note that it is distinctly lacking in the "Dual Natured" power. By comparison, the Sapient Critters section, which happens earlier in the book and is referenced above, has that Power specifically mentioned for the applicable Critters, and where reference in the Magic section, it is capitalized indicating they are referring to the Power, not merely describing. So, not only was the Shifter section re-written, the writer specifically chose not to capitalize the Dual Natured description. There is no indication that this description, which should be ascribed to their magical nature, is a power, and not merely a description (and in addition it is lower cased, and hyphenated).
Further, I actually quoted from the 3rd printing of the Street Magic (I downloaded it just weeks ago) SR4A supplement. For reference, I have re-checked the first printing, which I still have, and it is as I have stated there too. You can be quite certain that if this were a mistake, it would have been corrected.

As I've reiterated: My house rule was made with a careful consideration of the powers, abilities, and descriptions of the SR4 Shifter. Not in spite of them. Shifters are most definitely not subject to the benefits of the "Dual Natured" power. And their entry, especially considering the other entries for Sapient Critters, makes that quite clear.
I am sorry that all of the CG are wrong - you're welcome to write them all a letter...
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Kesslan
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PostSubject: Re: A Time For Secrets OOC   A Time For Secrets OOC - Page 23 EmptyWed Jul 11, 2012 11:33 am

Gala. The entry for Shape Shifters, under magic very specifically states Shape Shifters are Dual Natured beings. Read it again. Shape shifters have ALWAYS been dual natured beings, ever since they were introduced as far as I know and most certainly under 3E and this has continued under 4E.

You ruling to the contrary makes it a house rule.

Feel free to even check with the SR4 dumpshock forums etc.

Edit:
Hell here's even a link discussing Shapeshifters dual natured ability. If I recall correctly Ancient is actually one of the writers. (Though not specifically of the books in question)

http://forums.dumpshock.com/lofiversion/index.php/t29195.html

Edit 2:
Further more the entry about Shape Shifters being dual natured beings was NOT CHANGED (though quite a few other things were in general) in the recent update of the Runner's Companion to bring it in line with SR4A
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